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	<title>Comments on: Anselm&#8217;s Unconstrained Optimization Conjecture</title>
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		<title>By: Mac McCarthy</title>
		<link>http://yrif.org/2009/08/24/anselms-unconstrained-optimization-conjecture/comment-page-1/#comment-666</link>
		<dc:creator>Mac McCarthy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 02:20:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://yrif.org/?p=1021#comment-666</guid>
		<description>Thank you for tackling this one. Like Just Some Guy, above, I&#039;ve been baffled by this argument, which just doesn&#039;t seem to have any cognative value -- it seems to argue around itself somehow. 

The idea that because we can *say* we can conceive of a perfect being doesn&#039;t mean anything. To say that perfection requires actuality isn&#039;t true - who says existence is perfection? Only our human judgement, which last time I looked rules nothing.

This whole argument is a chain of Say What?&#039;s. &quot;So (*hah!) if what you&#039;re thinking of is really so great, it must exist!&quot; How about: &quot;Or not, as the case may be.&quot; Or: &quot;I guess you&#039;re not capable of thinking of something so great it must exist because you thought of it, are you?&quot;

This kind of exercise in sophistry reminds me of Xeno&#039;s so-called Paradox, which is stated in such a way as to wrap itself in its own linguistic knot, overloading terms so that it appears to create a paradox where none exists. (If you divide an &#039;infinite&#039; number of halfways of distance into an infinite number of halves of time remaining, you get &#039;1&#039; -- which is to say, the turtle reaches his destination, and only your failure to notice the halves of time and of distance cancel each other out creates the pretense at a paradox.)

If you conceive of a being so perfect that its perfection requires its existence, and it doesn&#039;t actually exist, then you failed at your pretense of conceiving of such a being. Which is hardly surprising.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for tackling this one. Like Just Some Guy, above, I&#8217;ve been baffled by this argument, which just doesn&#8217;t seem to have any cognative value &#8212; it seems to argue around itself somehow. </p>
<p>The idea that because we can *say* we can conceive of a perfect being doesn&#8217;t mean anything. To say that perfection requires actuality isn&#8217;t true &#8211; who says existence is perfection? Only our human judgement, which last time I looked rules nothing.</p>
<p>This whole argument is a chain of Say What?&#8217;s. &#8220;So (*hah!) if what you&#8217;re thinking of is really so great, it must exist!&#8221; How about: &#8220;Or not, as the case may be.&#8221; Or: &#8220;I guess you&#8217;re not capable of thinking of something so great it must exist because you thought of it, are you?&#8221;</p>
<p>This kind of exercise in sophistry reminds me of Xeno&#8217;s so-called Paradox, which is stated in such a way as to wrap itself in its own linguistic knot, overloading terms so that it appears to create a paradox where none exists. (If you divide an &#8216;infinite&#8217; number of halfways of distance into an infinite number of halves of time remaining, you get &#8217;1&#8242; &#8212; which is to say, the turtle reaches his destination, and only your failure to notice the halves of time and of distance cancel each other out creates the pretense at a paradox.)</p>
<p>If you conceive of a being so perfect that its perfection requires its existence, and it doesn&#8217;t actually exist, then you failed at your pretense of conceiving of such a being. Which is hardly surprising.</p>
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		<title>By: Just Some Guy</title>
		<link>http://yrif.org/2009/08/24/anselms-unconstrained-optimization-conjecture/comment-page-1/#comment-549</link>
		<dc:creator>Just Some Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 20:53:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://yrif.org/?p=1021#comment-549</guid>
		<description>I have never - ever - been able to wrap my head around the Ontological Argument.  And oh how I&#039;ve tried, because I desperately want to be sure to take seriously all of the competitions claims.

And in almost all cases, I can - if I imagine myself to be sufficiently ignorant (or deranged). That&#039;s good, because from that understanding I can see what&#039;s lacking, and where to start from.

What scares me about the Ontological Argument is that there&#039;s no perspective from which I can make it &quot;add up.&quot; That worries me not because that might make it valid (how?) but because I can&#039;t understand the failures in the proponent&#039;s view.

My only consolation is the strong suspicion that the reason I can&#039;t understand it is because it doesn&#039;t make sense. It appears so blatantly flawed, on the face, that I hesitate out of fear of simplification: &#039;perfection&#039; is subjective (what would be &#039;most perfect?&#039;), and the fact that one imagines a thing does not necessitate objective existence. Reductio ad absurdum.

Is that really all there is to it? How is that even an argument? o.^</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have never &#8211; ever &#8211; been able to wrap my head around the Ontological Argument.  And oh how I&#8217;ve tried, because I desperately want to be sure to take seriously all of the competitions claims.</p>
<p>And in almost all cases, I can &#8211; if I imagine myself to be sufficiently ignorant (or deranged). That&#8217;s good, because from that understanding I can see what&#8217;s lacking, and where to start from.</p>
<p>What scares me about the Ontological Argument is that there&#8217;s no perspective from which I can make it &#8220;add up.&#8221; That worries me not because that might make it valid (how?) but because I can&#8217;t understand the failures in the proponent&#8217;s view.</p>
<p>My only consolation is the strong suspicion that the reason I can&#8217;t understand it is because it doesn&#8217;t make sense. It appears so blatantly flawed, on the face, that I hesitate out of fear of simplification: &#8216;perfection&#8217; is subjective (what would be &#8216;most perfect?&#8217;), and the fact that one imagines a thing does not necessitate objective existence. Reductio ad absurdum.</p>
<p>Is that really all there is to it? How is that even an argument? o.^</p>
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